Subject: [FEniCS-dev] New proposed project: FEniCS Apps

From: "Andy Ray Terrel" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:33:23 +0200

Hello fellow FEniCS hackers,

We're currently considering launching a new FEniCS project called

'FEniCS-Apps'

The idea of this project would be to establish a community of
developers that use FEniCS software for larger applications. These
applications would then be hosted as individual sub-projects under
'FEniCS-Apps'. The aim is to enable developers to share code, ideas
and best practices when using other FEniCS projects like FFC and
DOLFIN.

Two examples of projects that could be hosted by 'FEniCS-Apps', that
we have developed, are:

dolfin-grade2:  a library for solving non-Newtonian fluid problems
using the grade-two fluid model

fenics-plasticity:  a library that implements different plastic models
and a framework for solving problems using these models.

We have set up a few things to show how our idea would work, that you
might check out.

* a page on the wiki (http://www.fenics.org/wiki/FEniCS_Apps)
* a hg repository (http://www.fenics.org/apps/)
* a mailing list (http://fenics.org/mailman/listinfo/fenics-apps)

Please let us know your opinion on the matter and any suggestions you may have.

Regards,

Andy R. Terrel
Kristian B. Ølgaard

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:54:33 +0200 (MEST)

> Please let us know your opinion on the matter and any suggestions you may

Andy and Kristian,

I think this is a good idea, which has previously been discussed at this
list. At that time I believe the main hesitation was connected to have
someone volunteer to administrate such a project.

I think it is good to have a fenics-forum for application oriented
developers that can interact with the developers of the basic tools.

All the best,
Johan

> _______________________________________________
> FEniCS-dev mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://www.fenics.org/mailman/listinfo/fenics-dev
>

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:27:27 +0200

> someone volunteer to administrate such a project.

I also think this looks good!

> developers that can interact with the developers of the basic tools.

Should Unicorn be moved into FEniCS Apps? Is it still active?

-- 
Anders

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:17:31 +0200 (MEST)

>> > Please let us know your opinion on the matter and any suggestions you
>> may
>> > have.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Andy R. Terrel
>> > Kristian B. Ølgaard
>>
>> Andy and Kristian,
>>

No, this is a separate project, with a different goal.

Unicorn is very active, at least in research and education at KTH. But to
have a matching release of DOLFIN we have decided to wait with the next
fenics.org release until our new developments on parallel adaptivity is
incorporated into DOLFIN (which is ongoing work which can be followed at
dolfin-dev).

/Johan

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:36:20 +0200

> No, this is a separate project, with a different goal.

ok, so how is it different?

> incorporated into DOLFIN (which is ongoing work which can be followed at

ok. I was just looking at the hg repository for Unicorn and it hasn't
been updated for a while.

I'm looking forward to the parallelization.

-- 
Anders

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:46:35 +0200 (MEST)

> ok, so how is it different?

I believe we have been through this discussion before, several times. But
in short: Unicorn aims at realizing the FEniCS vision of "...the goals of
generality, efficiency, and simplicity, concerning mathematical
methodology, implementation, and application.", for continuum mechancs
problems, using one implementation of one method for a wide range of
problems, extending the generality of currently available methods in this
area, concerning mathematical methodology and implementation.

FEniCS Apps, to me, sounds more like a forum for a wide range of
application oriented developers using FEniCS software tools, less focused
on a unifying mathematical methodology.

> I'm looking forward to the parallelization.

Good!

/Johan

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:05:08 +0200

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 06:46:35PM +0200, Johan Hoffman wrote:
> I believe we have been through this discussion before, several
> times.

Yes, but we've never come to any conclusion.

> But in short: Unicorn aims at realizing the FEniCS vision of "...the
> goals of generality, efficiency, and simplicity, concerning
> mathematical methodology, implementation, and application.", for
> continuum mechancs problems, using one implementation of one method
> for a wide range of problems, extending the generality of currently
> available methods in this area, concerning mathematical methodology
> and implementation.

I thought Unicorn was an application code based on DOLFIN. It would be
better to put any general tools into DOLFIN.

> on a unifying mathematical methodology.

I don't think that there is any particular goal with FEniCS Apps other
than collecting projects based on FEniCS (like Unicorn). So each project
is free to state its own goals as part of FEniCS Apps.

Anyway, it's not very important so I won't push it further. I just
thought that now that FEniCS Apps exists, and more importantly, Andy
and Kristian have stepped up to maintain it, it would be natural to
include our only existing application code (not counting the new codes
from Andy and Kristian) into the collection of applications.

-- 
Anders

---

From: Ridgway Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:31:18 -0700

Whether or not Unicorn belongs in fenics-apps or not, it would be
important to highlight it in the same way as the codes in fenics-apps
are being highlighted. Maybe it could be elsewhere but with a pointer
in fenics-apps so that people would not miss it?

Ridg

On Sep 15, 2008, at 10:05 AM, Anders Logg wrote:

>>>>>>> We have set up a few things to show how our idea would work,  
>>>>>>> that
>>>> you
>>>>>>> might check out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please let us know your opinion on the matter and any  
>>>>>>> suggestions
>>>> you
>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Andy R. Terrel
>>>>>>> Kristian B. Ølgaard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy and Kristian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this is a good idea, which has previously been  
>>>>>> discussed at
>>>> this

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:14:50 +0200 (MEST)

Yes, this is natural. I am all in favour of including Unicorn among the
fenics-apps, as you describe. But at the same time, I also think it is
important to keep Unicorn as a FEniCS project in itself, since it is the
only project aiming at realizing the FEniCS vision in the direction of
mathematical modeling (turbulent/laminar compressible/incompressible flow,
fsi, etc. as one solver).

/Johan

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:35:59 +0200

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 11:14:50PM +0200, Johan Hoffman wrote:
> fenics-apps, as you describe.

The only difference would then be that the repository for Unicorn is
under

  fenics.org/hg/unicorn

instead of

  fenics.org/apps/unicorn

> But at the same time, I also think it is

I don't agree. I also want to do all those things, but as part of DOLFIN.

-- 
Anders

---

From: Ridgway Scott <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:37:37 -0700

> I don't agree. I also want to do all those things, but as part of  
I assume you mean that you `don't agree' with the statement
`only project aiming at realizing ...' I will be quite happy to see
many more codes that aim in this direction!

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:47:41 +0200

> many more codes that aim in this direction!

Yes!

My only point is that it would be natural to include Unicorn in the
collection of applications.

It would be beneficial both for FEniCS Apps (to be able to include a
state-of-the art unified continuum mechanics solver) and for Unicorn
(getting some help from Andy and Kristian with maintenance, running
buildbots etc).

-- 
Anders

---

From: "Andy Ray Terrel" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:25:36 +0200

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 12:47 AM, Anders Logg <[email-masked]> wrote:
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It sounds as if everyone likes the project idea.  I've had a couple
more applications codes promised, so hopefully we be able to grow very
soon.  We have added a link from the main page and will discuss more
about particular structure of the projects on the fenics-apps mailing
list (http://fenics.org/mailman/listinfo/fenics-apps).

-- Andy

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:38:34 +0200

> list (http://fenics.org/mailman/listinfo/fenics-apps).

Nice!

-- 
Anders

---

From: Johan Jansson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:46:11 +0200

> I don't agree. I also want to do all those things, but as part of DOLFIN.
Hi!

I'm very positive about FEniCS Apps, and I think that Unicorn should be 
included as well.

In light of this discussion, if you want to develop a solver for 
compressible/incompressible flow, shouldn't that be included in FEniCS 
Apps, or? Why would that fit into the DOLFIN project?

  Johan

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:28:36 +0200

> I'm very positive about FEniCS Apps, and I think that Unicorn should be 

Good. Note that being part of FEniCS Apps is not the same thing as not
being a project. Everything inq FEniCS Apps is a project. The point as
I see it is to collect application-oriented projects (applications)
and put up an infrastructure that allows us to add new projects at
high speed with minimal resistance. If Unicorn is placed under FEniCS
Apps, it would still be a project, still have a web page, still have
its own repository etc, just like DOLFIN-grade2 and FEniCS Plasticity.

> Apps, or? Why would that fit into the DOLFIN project?

Yes, it should be in FEniCS Apps (the solver) but as much as possible
of common infrastructure (mesh algorithms etc) should be in DOLFIN.

-- 
Anders

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:05:44 +0200 (MEST)

> many more codes that aim in this direction!

Yes, and this would probably be a stimulated by the FEniCS Apps, which is
good.

/Johan

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:11:02 +0200 (MEST)

> its own repository etc, just like DOLFIN-grade2 and FEniCS Plasticity.

Good. But then I think that essentially we are all on the same page.

> of common infrastructure (mesh algorithms etc) should be in DOLFIN.

Ok. Sounds very much like the Unicorn approach, which I think is good for
DOLFIN.

/Johan

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:22:09 +0200

> Good. But then I think that essentially we are all on the same page.

Finally. So do you want to move Unicorn into FEniCS Apps? The change
would be to

 (i)   Move the repository from /hg to /apps (I just need to change one symlink)
 (ii)  List it on the FEniCS Apps web page
 (iii) Edit the front page

My suggestion would be to edit the front page to list first "core
components" and then FEniCS Apps (or the other way around).

Does this sound good?

-- 
Anders

---

From: "Johan Hoffman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:46:47 +0200 (MEST)

>> >> >> Yes, this is natural. I am all in favour of including Unicorn
>> among
>> >> the
>> >> >> important to keep Unicorn as a FEniCS project in itself, since it
>> is
>> >> the
>> >> >> only project aiming at realizing the FEniCS vision in the
>> direction
>> >> of
>> >> >> mathematical modeling (turbulent/laminar
>> compressible/incompressible
>> >> flow,

This sounds good, to me.

/Johan

---

From: "Andy Ray Terrel" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:35:23 +0200

> /Johan

Sounds like everyone wants UNICORN to be part of FEniCS Apps.  I'll
put the pointers for it up on the wiki and rearrange the mercurial
repositories as previously mentioned.  It's good to have another
project on board (even if it is just moving a project around).

-- Andy

---

From: Anders Logg <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:45:28 +0200

> project on board (even if it is just moving a project around).

I've updated the front page.

-- 
Anders

---

From: "Garth N. Wells" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:20:59 +0100

> project on board (even if it is just moving a project around).

Very nice. Having Unicorn on-board strengthens fenics-apps.

Garth